72: Discernment Counseling for Couples on the Brink w/ Lana Isaacson

Discernment Counseling: Should I Stay or Should I Go?

Solving Disconnection Podcast with Jason Polk

Guest: Lana Isaacson, Licensed Couples Therapist (CO & MA), Certified EFT Therapist

Episode Summary

Jason and Lana explore discernment counseling — a short-term, evidence-based process designed for couples on the brink of divorce or separation, where one partner is "leaning out" and the other is "leaning in."

Timestamps

• 0:00 — Introduction & guest overview
• 2:20 — What is discernment counseling?
• 2:33 — The leaning out vs. leaning in dynamic
• 4:07 — Up to 5 sessions: how the process works
• 5:09 — Does discernment counseling involve both partners?
• 5:59 — What happens in the first session
• 6:40 — Does the counselor have an agenda?
• 9:44 — Top reasons couples consider divorce today
• 10:58 — Growing apart: the #1 cause
• 14:21 — What does success look like in discernment counseling?
• 29:23 — The personal agenda for change
• 34:04 — "Divorce is never an emergency" (Bill Doherty)
• 36:12 — Research outcomes: the 3 paths (53% / 31% / 16%)
• 44:52 — Script for the leaning-out partner: how to start the conversation
• 46:29 — Script for the leaning-in partner: how to respond
• 50:23 — Avoiding "half-hearted" couples therapy
• 53:50 — Active affairs: how discernment counseling differs from couples therapy
• 58:53 — How to get started: clarity call with Lana

Notable Quotes

• "Success isn't whether a couple decides to stay together — it's whether both partners learned something really valuable about their relationship and themselves."
• "Divorce is never an emergency." — Bill Doherty
• "The natural drift of contemporary married life… is toward less spark, less connection, less intimacy." — from Take Back Your Marriage by Bill Doherty

Resources Mentioned

• Take Back Your Marriage by Bill Doherty
• Learn more about Discernment Counseling at Colorado Relationship Recovery.
• Learn more about our core offering of Couples Therapy in Denver.

Transcript

0:00

welcome everyone. As always, thank you for checking out this podcast. Today I have Lana Isaacson. She's a friend, a colleague. She's an experienced couples therapist. She's licensed in Colorado and Massachusetts, and she's a certified emotional focused therapist, also known as EFT. Today we talk about discernment counseling, also known as, should I stay or should I go Therapy? And there's a lot of great stuff here. Check it out. But first I'm going to introduce the show. Welcome everyone. This is solving disconnection and creating connected relationships for couples and parents. My name is Jason Polk, and I've worked this exclusively with couples as a therapist and coach for over 10 years. On this podcast, I share my experience professionally. Personally and those of our amazing guests. Lana, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I really appreciate it. I'm so happy to be here, Jason. Yeah. And Lana, we're talking about something we have not yet talked about on this podcast and that is discernment counseling and also within the context that marriage is hard, obviously otherwise we wouldn't be couples therapist. And you shared a note with me that one in four people on any given day have thought about divorce. Mm-hmm. And, that's pretty interesting. And even in the podcast episode, my wife and I, we had a kind of a major thing and I'm like, dang. Is this gonna be number two divorce for me? Oh, so gosh, you know, it does happen. But the discernment counseling again, you're an expert in it. And I would love to hear, exactly is the discernment counseling and who's the ideal client for this service? Great. Yeah, I'm really honored to speak about it and I can definitely say that, I wish I had this training, and this knowledge and experience and discernment counseling from the beginning of my work as a couple therapist. However, most couple therapists don't get this training. It's something that, some of us, just find along our journey. And, so I guess, the most succinct way of describing or explaining what is discernment counseling is it, an evidence-based, process, or protocol for helping couples who are on the brink of divorce. And when I say couples on the brink, usually it's one partner who is leaning out, the other is leaning in, because they are considered a mixed agenda, couple, one, the leaning in partner is still ideally a champion for marriage. And they are, um, often the one who calls me, the one who is willing to do whatever they can to save their marriage. And the one who is leaning out is the one who may have threatened divorce or may have even filed papers and started the process. And there might be couples who are not married, but they are in a long term, serious commitment, and they also can benefit from discernment counseling. So the word, what are we discerning or what am I helping couples discern is whether or not it's, should I stay or should I go? Mm-hmm. I think that was like an 80 song or something, nineties. I love that song. Um, I'm not even sure of all the lyrics, but it was a fun song and oftentimes in life we, we get to these places and we're trying to decide between, you know, two different options and ideally they're both really good options, but in serious long-term commitments was someone we love. And had, the hopes at the beginning of our relationship it was going to last. Uh, the idea of the relationship ending is of course not what most people would ever. Ever have anticipated and it could be terrifying and heartbreaking. And, so what I'm helping couples with in this short term process, it's typically only up to five sessions, is to help both partners with this extremely difficult, place that they're at in their relationship. And so I'm helping the leaning out partner discern whether or not to stay and make their relationship work or should they leave. And it's always, always the client's decision. Mm-hmm. And where I can help, in a different way than an individual therapist can help is that I have so much, advanced training in couples relationships and dynamics. That I know, even in situations that can seem totally hopeless or impossible to be able to change, I know a lot of different possibilities for how that couple can turn their relationship around. So that was more of a description. I'm realizing I'm not giving, going into all the kind of the nuts and bolts of it. Yeah, yeah, sure. Or the, the details. But I have to, just a quick nuts and bolts question. Do you do discernment counseling with both people or is it one person? That's a great question. So it's a both. Okay. I initially, do a phone screening with each partner individually so I can hear a little bit about what, is happening for them. You know, one of the main questions is what has happened to your marriage? Or long-term relationship that has gotten you to the point where divorce or, or separating or ending is a possibility. And so I begin with individuals, um, to give them that safety so they can speak more freely. And then in the very first session, I'll meet with them together and to be able to hear the story of their relationship. So I really wanna know what are all the things that the couple has tried? I'll ask them about children. What role, if any, do your children play in your decision making about the future of your marriage or relationship? And the best of times is always one of my favorite questions. Mm-hmm. Uh, what is, what was the best of times in your relationships since you met a time when you felt the most connection and joy in your relationship? And while I'm going through some of these questions to help them, begin to really reflect on their relationship in a deeper way, Really cool. Yeah. And I know we'll probably talk about this, but you don't have an agenda. Correct? You're not like, Hey, I'm gonna keep'em together, or, Hey, I'm gonna divorce'em or separate them. That's a wonderful question. And uh, who, it feels a little loaded, but it, but, I honestly, I have to respect everybody's autonomy. Mm. And, both their autonomy and also I always want to hold the hope. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That even as I said earlier, in situations where the relationship issues feel so dire mm-hmm. Or you just, a partner feels so hopeless that there are often solutions that the general public who,, don't work with couples, day in and day out like we do that they might not be able to see some of the solutions. But I also will say there are some situations that, although, I wouldn't ever be the one to make a decision for anyone for their relationship, that there are some situations that divorce might. Feel unavoidable for the couple and where it might be harder for me to hold the hope. I could say just in, a few cases where there are these different, categories that the founder or creator of discernment counseling, bill Dougherty, the way he describes problems are hard problems and soft problems and soft isn't easy. But, um, I'll say hard problems are the aaas. So abuse, affairs, addictions. Mm-hmm. And in the past, abandonment might have been, one of the legal reasons why somebody could, could, be able to file for divorce. If in one of those cases, the partner who is engaging in one of the aaas or four as. Isn't willing to get help, isn't willing to, you know, go for an evaluation for, an addiction or substance issue or process addiction issue, like sex addiction, for example. If they're engaging in abuse, um, and not willing to get help with maybe anger management or they're in an active affair, if they're not willing to end that affair, there are some situations that they erode, they're so destructive. The behavior of one partner, um, that it would be harder for me to hold the hope. Mm-hmm. But where I do hold it is if partners are willing to get help, then I, we are, we're able to help these couples Yeah. Um, bounce back. Yeah. In most cases. And the last thing I wanted to say, so I don't forget when you asked, do I have an agenda? I guess my one, the only agenda I have is to, um, there's a saying in discernment counseling that, the way we view success is not whether or not a couple decides to state together. It's did both partners learn something really valuable about their relationship in themselves? Nice. That's great. I love how you said that I learned something about themselves and their partner. What are, some of the top issues for couples today who consider or follow through with separation or divorce? And how does the discernment counseling help couples with these issues? So, it is really interesting how the top issues are actually what, we consider the soft issues. I'd say the number one reason that couples divorce today is, growing apart. Mm-hmm. Um, and they, couples might describe it as a lack of intimacy, um, emotional intimacy. And, most couples, even couples who are older, I've had couples in their sixties, seventies who perhaps, their dynamic really worked well for them throughout the majority of their marriage. And then as they got older, one or both partners realized that they want something more, they want a deeper connection. And, you know, the kids. Are gone. They're empty nesters. And they just can sense this distance, this disconnection between them or not being able to talk to each other, on a deeper level. So I'd say growing apart is the number one. Mm-hmm. And then emotional intimacy. So they're not always the same. The growing apart might be somebody saying, I'm on a spiritual journey. There might be a partner who is doing really deep personal growth work and their loved one. They don't have that same passion that they do, for spiritual work or someone else is doing some other kind of meaningful, um, volunteering in the community, or, maybe they're still really passionate about their career, and home life. And they feel like they're doing all the right things, you know, to be the best spouse. But again, their partner might really be longing for a deeper emotional connection. So, it is to me really interesting that the main issues today are more of these soft issues. Mm. And that they can be just as painful. So even though, um, the aaas are considered the hard issues. The soft ones are much more common for the reason people are filing for divorce or ending their significant relationship. And I wanna say the one really hopeful piece about the soft issues is what we know from the research, what I know from experience mm-hmm. Is that these are, believe it or not, co-created, and it's humbling Mm. You know, to think about that. Mm-hmm. And maybe later on, I'll, I'll share my story a little bit in here. Yeah. And so, but I can relate. I got it. So you're talking about the leaning out partner? Mm-hmm. That's more the message that this is co-created. Yeah. Well, the, yeah. The leaning out partner who might feel like they have been carrying the torch or emotional intimacy or the relationship they've been. You know, scheduling the dates, getting the childcare. Mm-hmm. Um, trying to do all the things that they can to really, um, cultivate a more, a deeper intimate relationship emotionally. It can be, it can feel really hard for them to see that there's anything that they need to change. Mm, I got it. Yeah. Yeah. And so discernment counseling can help with that very thing to understand this is co-created. Which, is not always what most people wanna hear, especially the leaning out when they feel like, um, I've had some leaning out, say. I did my work. Oh, I, yeah. You know, I've had some leaning out. Say I've been in therapy, you know, 10 years or, um, I do all this personal and spiritual growth work. My partner is not doing any of it, and I wouldn't invalidate. Mm-hmm. Um, what they're saying. My guess is that could be factually totally true. That they've done a ton, of real therapy, of, personal spiritual work. They've perhaps been in women's groups or men's groups. Um, but the part that they're not always able to see is where they've, I'm going to say fallen short in the relationship, how they haven't shown up for their partner. Mm-hmm. And it's just a lot more complicated than, just one person who Yeah. Causes these, these issues. Yeah.. Well,, I want to talk about success of the discernment counseling. Mm-hmm. But real quick, as you know, and I think as the listeners know, I've been divorced and that's the whole reason why I became a couples therapist and reflecting on it like I was emotionally checked out. Like I had it in my mind that I was done, I was the leaning out partner. And my ex-wife was a leading in. Mm-hmm. You know, What would success. Look like, right? Would it be like, now you think of it like it co-created. Mm-hmm. I could have used some of that accountability because part of the issue, I was on my high horse, be like, oh my gosh, look at you. You're doing all this stuff. Right? So you're doing all this stuff that's not good for the relationship. Yeah. I'm the very thing I'm on my high horse looking down. Right. That inherently is not good. Right. But I don't know, like any success, or like the research shows the general outcomes for couples mm-hmm. Who participate in this process. There's three things there. But I don't know if, it something comes to you. Mm-hmm. Well, I think the, I'll go back first to what we say in discernment counseling about success is that at the end of the process. I would that the best outcome I would want for you and your ex, if your former spouse mm-hmm. If you had gone in to see me, would be that both of you would have been able to learn so much more about the complexity and depth of your relational dynamic and how in spite of, um, your hopes for the relationship mm-hmm. And your love for one another and your commitment, at the beginning of your relationship that, I wanna always honor the pain that both partners are in when they come in and see me and as well as if it feels completely hopeless or despairing. And, the hopeful part, so number one is that you'd both learn something really important. Yeah. Whether it could have been applied. And to that relationship, Jason, your first marriage. So you and your former partner could have transformed that relationship or it can be applied to your next relationships. Mm-hmm. And even if it feels like, you are able to see so clearly her shortcomings or how she was contributing in a negative way to your relationship. We all have blind spots. And that's where, in spite of, the deepest most, you know, powerful personal work that we do that, there's always more to learn if we're willing to be a little bit or a lot humble significant benefit of meeting with a discernment counselor versus an individual therapist when a leaning out gets to this place or leaning in, is that that discernment counselor, I can see much more of the couple's relational dynamic then if I'm just an individual therapist and one partner comes to me and says, gosh, I'm in this horrible situation and I don't know what to do. I feel like I've done everything I could or but I, I'll be able to see the couple's dynamic so much better. Yeah. And reflecting on it, that's what we needed. Right. You mentioned learn something. Yeah. And um,'cause I feel like the couples therapist didn't tell us about the cycle. I know that's a thing. EFT. Mm-hmm. And RLT we call it to more the more stance. Stance. Stance. Stance. Yeah. Yeah. Like we didn't know that. And like that information would've been. So helpful, right? Like, hey, I understand my part in the dance. I understand your part in the dance.. And so I think that's really great. Like first learn something. Yeah. Right. And what are the underlying issues? And if you and your partner didn't have, um, if some of the safety was eroded, maybe there was a lot of emotional intimacy or closeness where you could take those emotional risks at the beginning of your relationship. But then you got to this incredibly hard place Yeah. Where it felt hopeless, the benefit of of seeing a discernment counselor and how I meet with each partner individually, that you can open up more. And I can help you let down some of those protective ways of coping that we all put on when we don't feel totally safe. And, for me to be, almost like I'm an advocate for both of you. I'm a support to both of you and in helping you learn as much as you can. And while I'm in some ways still a champion for relationships just as I am as a couple's therapist. Mm-hmm. Also I need to be as respectful as possible that this is your journey your, um, your life. One of the most important life decisions. And I wanna support you in being a safe space, but also with a very structured process to help you make. Make this decision. Yeah, yeah. No, that, That makes sense. And so in a way, that's what success looks like. Yeah. Yeah. I would also say success. One of the, one of, um, the pieces that, from discernment counseling that I've brought into couples therapy that I really love is helping each partner create a personal agenda for change. The definition of discernment counseling is to help partners be able to gain clarity and confidence in the direction for their relationship based on a deeper understanding of the problems of their relationship or what happened to their relationship as well as both of their contributions. So clarity and confidence in the direction for your relationship, and also developing a deeper understanding of what happened to our relationship. What created, how did we both co-create these problems. Mm-hmm and so through the process, I. Um, the clarity and confidence for the direction of the relationship. I want to help both partners decide by the end of therapy. I'll actually share path one after I share two and three. Two is divorce or separation, and three is six months of couple therapy. An all out effort to put everything we have into learning as much as we can. About our relationship, about ourselves and how, we unintentionally of course, co-created some of the problems and, and how we can change that moving forward. How we can create. A much healthier, more, fulfilling, passionate, um, loving, enjoyable, satisfying relationship. And so part of how I help couples do that is when I meet with them individually, I help them create a personal agenda for change, which is comprised by about, it could be three to five items. Um, reflecting on yourself to figure out what are the areas that I need to change in? And, I say start with what are your partners to top gripes for the first two? You know, what are those things that your partner would express, hurt, or, sadness or what would they complain about? And that's where we can start. But also think about your partner's longings or needs. What are those? Underneath the anger, underneath the silence, when we are able to help our partner open up more, the discernment counselor is, um, to really hear what, what has my partner belonging for. Through the process for you to be able to get about an area that, um, that maybe you've heard, and not only your current relationship, but maybe you've heard from some other people, you know? I know for me it's, this is going to sound superficial, but it is a big deal. One of the areas that I continually need to work on is being on time. And I think somebody can, I can, of course, because it's me and like all of us, we just, even though even people who are really hard on themselves and have really high expectations like I do of myself. We also look at ourselves or give ourselves more of a break or give ourselves more grace than we think, and that's our blind spot. Mm-hmm. And so I might think, oh, well, you know, I have a DHD and if you understood brain chemistry better, you would be able to get, all the good reasons why it's hard for me. And it's nothing personal at all. Yeah. But it was an area that I learned, had an impact on my partner and as it would anybody. And I had to really and continually work on it. Um, so it might be on our personal agenda change. What's that griping area? What is something what, even if it seems small trust that there's something underneath it that's so much bigger because for my spouse. You know, my husband, for him it was, a signal to him or an example of he's not a priority, he's not as important to me as I am to him. Yeah. Got it. Yep. I like that. The gripes. But you mentioned something too, I'm really big on accountability mm-hmm. And looking at yourself. And you mentioned, the two, three gripes, like the gripe. My wife has a me We were talking about this last night, so it's fresh. Well, thank you for being so brave to share it. Well, I mean, i'd probably shared on this podcast too, so our girls, they're at their grandparents' house, Uhhuh, and so Jess and I had a date night. Oh. And as everyone knows, recommend date nights. Right. Especially with kids. It's not complicated. Get together, talk with your partner. But we were, we are going deep, so we are, I listened to a Terry Reel podcast. Mm. And he was talking about growing up family of origin stuff. And the pain of the mom, sometimes the son feels like they need to care for it. I'm going off in the weeds here, huh. But I was reflecting on this because I get judgemental when Jess is not doing well, right? Mm-hmm. And is that helpful? No. And you said that you could judge judgmental when Jess isn't doing well. In what way? Yeah, like mentally. Like if she's having a hard time or anxious, you know? And then I think of it, part of it, oh, great, now I gotta take care of my mom. Right? Oh, is kind of like this older thing. Mm. And so I get judgemental of her and that was one of the things that I need to work on. But you mentioned accountability. I can't say, oh, it's because I just learned this because my mom did it. This is my reaction. I have to own it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I know there was a lot there. But anyway, I circle back from the accountability. I'm so glad. I love that. I love that you're bringing that up because I think that, yeah, that might prevent somebody from, from putting that on their personal agenda for change. Hmm. Or, or minimizing it. Yeah. And it can, it continuing to be, um, an issue. So I wonder, while most people would have compassion if they heard your childhood story and said, oh yeah, that was something you had to do for your mom, I'm guessing mm-hmm. I think is what I'm hearing, and then. To have to do for it to come up again in your marriage is really hard. And it sounds like it's also a block to having some empathy and being able to support your partner. Yeah. Yeah. It's a block to being curious and having empathy. Yeah. And slowing down being like, Hey, what's going on? Right. And the impact unjust. Do you know what that is? Yeah. She's annoyed. Right? This is not a safe place. Mm-hmm. Right? Like, I'm feeling bad and now you're gonna judge me. Mm. Yeah. Right. And so like, she has to always be on, she may might feel, yeah. Like I always have to be on, right? Mm-hmm. And this is maybe even going deeper, A Polk thing. You always gonna be happy, right? Like, um, everything's okay. We're not gonna go deep talk about things, that's interesting.'cause you do, you do go deep. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the thing. I'm a therapist. Right. But but you still have that, that old script in you. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. It's the old, old script, but it's not beneficial for just, it's not beneficial for me ultimately. Mm-hmm. Right. Because if I slow down and become curious, like I'm gonna benefit. Right. Yeah. Like it's in my best interest to do that. Yes. I love that. It's not in my best interest to be judgemental. Right, right. Absolutely right. Yeah. Right. Because then you said the impact on Jess is she feels annoyed. She feels like it's not a safe space. She can't open up and be fully herself. Yeah. And so there's more distance. More distance. Yeah. And you want and you don't want that. No. Yeah. I don't want the kids to see that too. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. And don't want the their kids to think, wow, that is a judgmental a-hole. Oh gosh. Yeah. Even going deeper. Right. Anyway, I guess I'm circling back to the accountability, but I like how mm-hmm. Discernment counseling is that I understand, I know I said this, I understand you're leaning out, right? Mm-hmm. If someone leaning in is more, probably more likely to look at their stuff. Right. But yeah. Correct. Not always. Okay. But, well, I would say in general, yes. Mm-hmm. Because they, they are in many cases feeling that desperation mm-hmm and terror about losing their partner and the shock of it all. And so some are, it's such a, a profound wake up call that they are willing to make change overnight. Mm-hmm. Uh, which sounds amazing. Mm-hmm. To, I think most partners, maybe people who are listening to this. Mm-hmm. Um, or reading this, if you're, I think this is a blog as well. But, if you've been wanting that change for 10 years, 20 years, and then it finally happens overnight, that can also be really hard to take it in. Yeah, for sure. You know? Yeah. Well, and can you say more why it's really hard? Because, oh wait, it was that easy for you to do or trust this or both? Yeah. Yeah. Like why, why didn't you do this for sooner? I've been begging for this or wanting this. Mm-hmm. And why did it have to get to this level? Lana, circling back to the three paths that you mentioned. One status quo, two divorce separation. Three, six months of couples therapy. Can share how the personal agenda for change, fits in, I know primarily I'm thinking for number three, six months of couples therapy. Mm-hmm. But I'd love to hear it from you. Yeah, the personal agenda change sets, couples the couple up, for greater success with couple therapy most. Couples do not come in to couple therapy with this clear personal agenda for change. If anything, they come in with an agenda for their partner's change, right? That they, know in their mind, they're super clear about what their partner needs to change in order for their relationship to improve. But they're, much less clear about how they're possibly contributing to the, the very dynamic that is causing them a lot of distress or loneliness or conflict or, a dissatisfaction with their relationship. So I love. This piece of discernment counseling. I almost feel like every couple coming in to couple therapy that this is where I start, where I, instead of going to their history and finding out all of their, backstory, you know, the issues or struggles that they may have experienced growing up or not, um, issues if they felt like they had an idyllic childhood. But, I really like to start with the present. What's happening today in your relationship? Um, or what has gotten you to this place that you are, considering, divorcing or for couples? Maybe you're here because you wanna change. But even with Path two, if a, the leaning out partner decides on divorce, they're going to have this. Really important and solid information that the Discernment Counselor will help you create. So it's not just your partner's feedback to you of all their gripes, and you're gonna write that down for what you need to change. It's the couple, the, the discernment counselor helping you create, a greater understanding of what's contributing to your dynamics. Even if you decide on divorce, you'll still have this incredible knowledge, um, and insight and awareness that will help you in any future relationship. And if, someone is divorcing and they have kids and that they and their partner are still going to benefit tremendously from knowing what are the areas that they want to grow in, but they're always going to be co-parents. And so to know if they really care about the kids to know what are the buttons I don't wanna press for my partner, how can I show up in a way that's more sensitive, that's more caring, that, will, elicit more goodwill on my partner's part because it, you will benefit from that. Um, especially, it's right where this is right around New Year's and Christmas time. So I'm just thinking if you're the partner who you want the kids on the holiday you wanna share that time. So the more that you can be aware of, uh, what are my partner's vulnerabilities, um, we call it enduring vulnerabilities. What are those areas from your partner's childhood or the hurts, um, unresolved hurts from your marriage? That you don't wanna con, it's just not in your best interest to continue, pressing those buttons and upsetting them. So trying to be a better partner for the sake of your kids. Mm-hmm. Even if you decide that you want to, end the marriage, you can still continue to grow. And even for Path one, um, path One, which is status quo, it's, I think an important option for couples when maybe one or both partners, they just don't have the energy, the time, the, finances, to really dive deep into Path three. Or they just still feel like they're on the fence and they need to do more soul searching work, and they're just really not sure what direction to go in. I love that there is this path one that, um, at the end of five sessions that. The leaning out partner doesn't feel like they have to make this decision because divorce is almost never an emergency decision. Oh, separation might be. Yeah. Um, you know, if there's a fear of, uh, the partner or their kids being harmed in some way mm-hmm. Or something else destructive happening. Mm-hmm. But, in general, yeah. Um, it's helpful to have that path one as an option. Mm-hmm. Can you say that again? Divorce is never an, an emergency and never emergency. Yeah. Yeah. So there, there, that is a good point. I've never heard that like being said that way. I have to admit this is, a Bill Dougherty quote. So the, yeah. The creator of, uh, discernment Counseling who said that? And, that was extremely helpful for me to hear and working with these, couples because I imagine that, especially for the leaning out, they probably feel tremendous pressure to make a decision. Yeah. And it's, this is just as we don't rush couples when they're, I would say think about how long couples take to plan a wedding or to decide on having children or, to maybe move to a new home. We understand, of course, it's going to take time mm-hmm. For you to make such a big. Life, life changing decision. Yeah. It's important to have that, it's almost like a placeholder, and yet couples can't stay in that level of ambivalence forever. Mm-hmm. Most leaning in partners cannot. Yeah. Maybe the leaning out can Okay. But the leaning in is not going to be okay with that. Yeah. They eventually getting back to that song, you know, should I stay or should I go? Yeah. Leaning in's, like Yeah. Make a decision. Yeah. I can't be in this limbo, um, forever. Yeah. So, just curious, being in the limbo, what do you think is too long? Like a year plus? Oh, I mean, I know it's like, not like a hard science, right. It's not a math problem. Right, right. Oh, I dunno if you, um, that's a good question. Yeah. I always say the six months that you mentioned, like, let's get this six months, but yeah, go ahead. No, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. Yep. Same. Yeah. And I, maybe sometimes I say this, but there's not backed by research or evidence. Right. I'm like, I don't think your relationship can take a year of ambivalence. Right. I don't know, but that's just a number that I got. Right. But I agree. And I don't know if it would help right now just to share what the research Yeah. Shows at the end of discernment counseling. Yeah, no, I'd love to hear it. The, the statistics are that, the research, generally is 53% of couples choose Path three, which again, is six months of couples therapy. Yes. Okay. Yep. Yep. With divorce off the table. Yep. Got it the next piece of the pie is 31% of couples choose Path two. And 16% of couples choose path one. And Path one status quo. Which is, Hey, you know what? We're not gonna do couples therapy. We're just going to keep it at it. Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. So it could be a got, got it. Just not yet. I just don't have the energy, the resources I need to do more soul searching. Got it. Um, yeah. Got it. I love to read in, one of Bill's Bill Doherty's books, about what is this growing apart that's happening today? How has this become the top issue? Yeah. Um, or the top cause for divorce. Yeah. So if, would it be okay if I share that? Yes. About growing apart? Yeah. The top issue. Yeah. I'd love to hear it. So the book that I am looking in, um, right now that I'm reading, it's called Take Back Your Marriage, sticking Together in a World That Pulls us apart. And, um, some of the chapters are, um, take back time for your marriage. Don't lose your marriage to your kids Resisting Consumer Marriage. The natural drift of contemporary married life in our busy, distracted, individualistic cell phone, obsessed, consumer driven, media saturated and work oriented world is toward less spark, less connection, less intimacy, and less focus on the couple relationship. Add in the demands of child sensitive parenting, and you have a pretty good picture of why many marriages decline over time. perfect segue how did you become interested in training in this model and offering it to couples? So, I think that, that excerpt from the book, take back Your Marriage. Mm-hmm. And why Our marriages drift, probably describes, I'd say like a crucible moment in my marriage and, yeah. Can you define crucible real quick? I'm not trying to interrupt topic. Um, okay. I, I would say crucible moment or crisis moment mm-hmm. Is when, I got to a place of wondering, yeah, should I stay or should I go, is this marriage really going to meet my needs? And it was, it was shocking to me that I even had that thought. Um, I don't know if I, I shared already that there's some research that says, one in four couples on any given day are thinking about, not couples, I should say, partners. It could just be one partner who has the thought of divorce go through their mind, and yet we, we rarely share that because it's so scary. Yeah. And so I, recall that time in my marriage where my husband and I were, we were both working really hard. I was, ironically, I'm thinking now in my marriage and family therapy training program, my husband was, he was working full-time, starting another business on the side. And we had a young child, our young precious son mm-hmm. Who we adore the heck out of. And I think my husband was training for an Iron Man race too. And we, we kind of thought we were killing it. We were doing amazing in life. Like, look at us. Um, and yet we also were not, not prioritizing our relationship. Yeah. And since our son was a year old, we always would have, this childcare exchange with friends. Mm-hmm. So we would have one or two dates a month, but that just does not cut it. Mm-hmm. For for really being able to have the intimacy and the connection, even the friendship that I think marriage really requires, if we wanna make it in the long run and not grow apart, not get to that crisis moment. And so I didn't realize that we were even heading to that, or un our relationship was unraveling. And until it, I just kind of woke up one day and yeah. Had this thought of, I don't think that this marriage is the right one for me. And it, it was so surprising and disorienting. But, um, and I could have used a sermon counseling at the time. Um, obviously my husband and I pulled through. But I would say some of the steps, at least one of the steps along my journey that was not helpful, that I think it is important for, anyone who's listening to think about if you are in, that difficult place that you're facing that crisis and really, you know, standing at the crossroads and wondering, um, is this the right marriage for me anymore? Or have I grown too far apart from my partner? Are we too different? Some couples will say, yeah, we're incompatible. We've gotten to that place. Um, so I'd say the detour that wasn't helpful, was seeing an individual therapist. Mm-hmm. Are you talking about for you? For me, yeah. Yeah. That even though, um, it was an outstanding individual therapist. It's almost, gosh, I don't wanna say impossible, but kind of for an individual therapist to be able to really understand the complexity and the dynamics of a couple's relationship and what's possible. It's really hard for them not to, not intentionally, but to take the side of mm-hmm. The client who's in their office. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And because you know, that client desperately I needed to be heard, I needed support. I, I was doing this discernment, um, process, but on my own with this therapist. And, eventually, I got to a place where I did, I did share with my husband, where I was at. But at that point, I was, gosh, I don't know what percent almost out the door. Mm. And it, it just kind of a miracle that mm-hmm. He said, while he went through a lot of emotional, he had a lot of emotions and a lot of reactions. Okay. And not all, not all, you know. Yeah, totally. Of course. Loving and compassionate, of course for good reason. But, it was kind of a miracle and, and a really, a blessing that he was willing to really, um, jump, jump in and do the work, roll up his sleeves and get to individual therapy, get involved with a men's group, go into couple therapy with me. And for me it was super humbling. But also incredible. And really important growth opportunity for me to mm-hmm. To learn what I needed to change and how I was also co-creating this dynamic that was causing us to drift apart. Yeah. Wow. So what you're saying is that the crucible moment, which is, is this right for me? Yeah. Is a great time to do discernment counseling Yes. And not individually counseling. Yes. Per your recommendation. Yeah. So how do you recommend people talk to their partner about we need to go to discernment counseling? That's such a great question. So, of course you can, eventually have them listen to this interview. Mm-hmm. Or, uh, read this blog, look at the information on discernment counseling on our website. Um, but I think it all, it has to start with a really vulnerable and brave, um. And gentle conversation. And I'm happy to share, a little bit of a script that I Yeah. I learned from Bill Dougherty. Okay. Yeah. The creator of discernment. So, um, what Bill suggests is if you are the leaning out partner and you are at this crossroads to, instead of waiting until you are, at that desperation point and in, a divorce lawyer's office mm-hmm. Instead to go to your partner. So get help before you're so demoralized. Mm. Um, if possible, and, go to your spouse. And, here's how the script goes to say to them. I'm drowning. I'm barely hanging on. I am. You know, I, I'm in total despair. I'm struggling. I need help. We need help. And I'm imploring you to please consider, coming in to couple therapy or discernment if, and I'd say discernment. I'll explain kind of the difference of what direction to go in. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But either way, just to first say to your partner, um, I'm scared for our marriage because I love you and I, I wanna be with you, but I'm also finding my hope declining. Um, my commitment is wavering. I don't like these feelings. It scares me. I think we need help, because we are in trouble in this marriage. Would you please come with me to get some help? Mm. Wow. And how different that is from what most partners do, which is. Okay. Blaming us. And most of us, instead, we might get to that point, we've been swallowing it, swallowing it, you know, just trying to keep the peace, um, for our family. And then we finally blow and say, I'm sick and tired of you doing this and this, and, you know, so we've gotta go to therapy, or you need to go, um, to therapy so you can fix yourself. Yeah. And if we do the blaming script, uh, about 99 times outta 100, we're gonna get a defensive response or counter attack or something that we don't want. So I also have another script for how to respond if your partner Yeah. Is the one to come to you and, and you're, you're floored. Just like somebody just knock the wind out of you or just Yeah. Yeah. But first I, yeah, I would love to hear like, I couldn't imagine especially if the partner didn't see this coming. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Right. I would love to, love to hear the script Yeah. Yeah. So how to best respond to your partner comes to you. Yeah. In, ideally they come to you in a more vulnerable way. Yeah. Than the, than the blaming one. Yeah. Not, not number two. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Right. Not that I'm sick and tired of you doing this and this. Yeah, yeah. Got it. Um, but ideally they come to you with the first way and they say, Hey, I am really scared for our marriage. And, that they, that's the approach they take. Mm-hmm. Um, so a response where you're going to get the best results, from your partner is to say something like, um, I clearly have not been listening well enough to you. Clearly you're telling me you're in a lot of pain, a lot of stress in the marriage, and I know I'm a part of that. Maybe even a big part and I haven't been listening to you. Would you be willing to tell me again? And I will only listen? Hmm. And then you might add, so please tell me what is causing, you so much unhappiness in our marriage? Yeah. And then at the end to say Thank you and I'm going to take this to heart. And ideally you'll also say, and I'm willing to get help. Yeah, and I would also say not easy to do is just getting that information. Oh gosh. But absolutely. I love it. What if, right. You do the script. Mm-hmm. You know, you are the partner who, the lean out partner. Mm-hmm. Right. You mentioned like, Hey, I've been unhappy. Yeah. And you go through the script and your partner says, no, I oof. Hard. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have like thoughts of, about that? Yeah, but you don't necessarily wanna throw in the towel, right? Well, some partners, maybe just how they're wired. They might, it might take them a little while, to really take in what you just shared with'em. So it might be you just planted a seed and got it that they might need a little time to. Really be able to process what you just shared with'em and how, they might not be willing to say yes right away, I'll go get help. Mm-hmm. And that I've been a part of it. So I think even if they do respond in the defensive way or counter attack, like, well, hey, you know, I've put up with all this or something. Um, if you're feeling really desperate and, and yet you don't wanna throw in the towel yet, um, because you can still see some really wonderful qualities of your partner, you remember, um, all the good qualities of your relationship at the beginning. To, I, I would say at that point it might be an individual therapist, as long as it ideally is an individual therapist who is a trained couple therapist. Mm-hmm. Or a trained discernment counselor like myself. Yeah. And somebody who is a champion for marriage, who understands the complexity of relational relationship dynamics. And somebody who can both be, a really supportive listener but also help, um, help you grow even if your partner is not willing to do the work at that, at this time. So discernment counseling. One of the greatest benefits of it is, um, to really prevent what, we call half-hearted couple therapy. So if you are the leaning out partner, or your partner is, really just has a very low motivation, that's what discernment counseling is for. And it's because if you go into couple therapy with one or both of you being half-hearted, the chances for success are really low. Mm-hmm. It's not that we can, sometimes can't see couples turn around. Once they get through the door and they feel heard and they start to have these amazing conversations that they've been, you've been wanting to have but didn't feel, you didn't have the tools, you didn't know how, you didn't feel safe to do it at home. But you can in the couple therapist's office, so sometimes you can turn it around. But if you're at this crisis point and divorce has been, in a serious way, then discernment counseling is really the direction to go in. I think another reason to consider discernment counseling is there's been research about people reflecting on their divorce and how some the statistics range between where couples were asked later, um, do you have any regrets about your divorce? And between 25 to 40% of couples saying that they regretted. Their divorce and that they Interesting. That they wished that they had more help, earlier on to have better understood their relationship dynamics. When I read the book, there are just certain, messages in our culture that are, they just sound really appealing or sexier. Like, you know, e pray love. Yeah, I was on track to do an e Pray love. I was like, yeah, you know, that sounds awesome. Mm-hmm. I, you know, where, first marriage, like I learned a lot. It was, it was the right, you know, that was right at the time, but now I'm like now onto a new adventure. I just, I think that in our culture, there's certain things that sound sexier, like conscious uncoupling and being able to, go after a new Yeah. A new relationship. And I, but I wanna keep it balanced, so I don't wanna. I don't wanna sound like I'm totally, insensitive to people who have Yeah. Chosen divorce. Yeah. Where, they're in a second marriage and they're so grateful Abuse affairs and addictions. Yeah. Traditional couples therapy that we've been trained in. Mm-hmm. We learned that an active affair is actually a precondition to couples counseling. Right. Like, we can't do couples therapy if there's an active affair. Yeah. But you shared with me before that, that that's not the case with the discernment counseling. Can you say more about that? Yeah, that was one of the most surprising and fascinating, uh, pieces about it that, um, when I originally sought out to discernment counseling training, I was so excited to be able to help couples who are at this crossroads with their relationship and helping them discern whether or not we should put all of our efforts in and, and try to almost, you know, have a second marriage with each other, really, you know, revamp or let's completely, rebuild our relationship. Um, but it's also, I can help a partner who's leaning out and in an affair, active affair, not just past affair, but active affair, that it's not unethical and I can help them discern whether or not to stay in that relationship. And again, it's their choice. Of course, it's we value the autonomy of our clients. And one of the reasons that, it can work in discernment counseling, unlike couple therapy, is couple therapy. I have a no secrets policy with my partners. I wanna do everything I can to help them, really strengthen their, that muscle and being, uh, taking risks and opening up their hearts to one another and being vulnerable and being there for one another. Versus in discernment counseling, I don't have a no secrets policy. I am able to keep confidence when I meet with each partner individually, but what I do let them know from the beginning is I will share my impressions with each of you. So I'll share things in general that I'm seeing. So they can benefit from me being able to sit outside their relationship and see their dynamic as a couple and how they can grow so much more. When I do individual work with a partner who is having an affair, keeping, and they were maybe, still grappling with, they didn't wanna get divorced, but they didn't wanna stop the affair that they were having. It was easier for them, I found to stay in that fantasy of that relationship and who that person was in their life. And to compare that partner with their current spouse or long-term partner, which is really like apples and oranges. It's like, it's so different. Mm-hmm. When you just see somebody, for occasional dates, versus you're living with them, when we, when people live with us, they see The, the good, the bad, the ugly. Mm-hmm. Um, they steer, they see all parts of us. So it's just, it's not even the same, um, relationship that they're grappling with. And it also doesn't, they're able to keep these parts of themselves really, separate versus them having to face like mm-hmm. Here's the reality of oftentimes they want, they wanna stay married. And there's also something really important and valuable that they're getting out of the affair. And so that is something that I have to process with them. I need to know what's the meaning of this for you? What's the value of this? What are you getting out of this affair? And to really dig in deep there and understand that as well as for them to understand the impact on their loved one and not just their loved one, but also for them to be able to really, I think get more grounded and to recognize the reality of how would it be for them if not only their partner found out, but their kids found out future, their friends, their colleagues, um, generations found out. How would that be for you? And can we bring into your marriage, the value, what you're getting out of that affair of this affair? Can we bring that into your marriage? And, you know, is there a way that I can help you share here are some needs or longings that aren't being met. And, um, it's never to blame the partner who is not having the affair. It's never their fault. I would imagine every couple therapist, um, would say that the, that it's always a choice to have an affair that they didn't have to choose that. But, um, we wanna find out the good reasons why they're taking that enormous risk. And, um, and for me to help that partner, um, decide to discern do they want to mm-hmm. Continue that relationship, does that have a long-term possibility for you? Or, do you wanna choose your marriage? Mm-hmm. Instead, yeah. Yeah. And you mentioned like Yeah, a hundred percent. Like you mentioned. Can I get that in my marriage? Yeah. I think that question is really important. I was watching a meme the other day. I followed Terry Real. Mm-hmm. And he says that in, in your relationship, you'll wake up one day and look at your partner and say, I have made a terrible mistake. It is like all relationships will have that, but he was saying that is a time to roll up your sleeves and get to work. Right. See if you can get what you want in your relationship. It's almost like our culture mm-hmm. Is quick to say, oh no, this is not right. You gotta do something else. You gotta like go be you. Right. Yeah. Lynn, well thank you so much for doing this. I've learned so much about the discernment for real. Wonderful. And so best way people to get, a hold of you also, we did talk about a clarity call. Mm. Right's. Okay. I dunno. Okay. You could say a little bit about that. Sure. So, um, if discernment counseling sounds like something that would be helpful for you and your partner. Either, uh, just one of you needs to start the process and contact Colorado Relationship Recovery. You can schedule a clarity call on our website and that would involve, a 30 minute, sometimes we can get that done in 20 minutes, but usually we need 30 minutes per person. And, each of you would schedule that, on the website or you can call and schedule that with me. I would meet with one of you for that. And then if, at the end of that call, it sounds like discernment counseling, again, just to reinforce that would feel like a good fit for you. You would talk to your partner next. I would not reach out to them. I'd want you to be able to do that. And, then your partner can call and schedule their clarity call and. Then if,, uh, the two of you feel like discernment counseling would be helpful and from my assessment, you meet the criteria that you would benefit and, be a good fit, then we would move forward with those sessions. Um, up to five sessions of discernment counseling. And as I said, wherever that process takes you, that I wanna support you in that, whatever path you choose, I wanna help you decide what's best for you. Yeah. Great. Well, so cool then. Well thank you so much. It's been amazing. Awesome. Thanks Jason. Uh, thank you so much for listening, and I'd love for you to share this with someone who you think can benefit from it. Alright.