67: Therapeutic Journeys: Brandon on RLT and Relationship Dynamics

Jason Polk, a seasoned therapist specializing in couples therapy, hosts Brandon Schwartz, LCSW, from Colorado Relationship Recovery on the podcast. 

Brandon shares his journey of becoming a therapist, influenced by overcoming bullying, depression, and a transformative experience with his own therapist in middle school. 

He discusses his educational path, shifting from a desire to join the Marines to pursuing psychology, eventually finding his passion in couples therapy. 

The conversation touches on the modalities of Relational Life Therapy (RLT) and its differences from other therapies, the concept of grandiosity and narcissism in relationships, and the profound impact therapy can have on personal and relational growth. 

Brandon emphasizes the importance of empathy, accountability, and differentiation in therapy, explaining why he finds his work both revolutionary and rewarding.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome

01:09 Brandon's Journey to Becoming a Therapist

02:47 High School and College Experiences

04:04 Choosing Marriage and Family Therapy

05:36 Impactful Therapy Experience

09:02 Relational Life Therapy (RLT) and Couples Work

13:57 First and Second Order Change in Therapy

15:34 Family Influence and Accountability

18:28 Understanding Human Behavior in Therapy

19:20 The Importance of Self-Realization

20:22 Personal Wake-Up Calls

22:21 The Role of Direct Feedback

25:31 Defining Narcissism in Therapy

31:51 The Revolutionary Impact of Couples Therapy

To learn more about Brandon and work with him, visit his About page.

Transcript

0:00

Welcome everyone. This is solving disconnection and creating connected relationships for couples and parents. My name is Jason Polk, and I've worked this exclusively with couples as a therapist and coach for over 10 years. On this podcast, I share my experience professionally. Personally and those of our amazing guests. Brandon, thank you for being on the podcast. Yeah, thank you for having me. Yeah, we're looking forward to it. Yeah, me too. And Brandon, you are a therapist at Colorado Relationship Recovery. Our practice, I would say superstar therapist., I try all star team therapist. So, the listeners know, and I wanted to have you on just to have you share a little bit of your experience being a therapist, a little bit about RLT, the modality you use with couples, also known as relational life therapy. And also a little bit about, um, narcissism.'cause I know you have some experience and specialized training in that, so. Sound good? Sounds good to me. All right. Well, Brandon, starting off, what made you become a, a therapist? That's a good question., I feel like it was kind of a lot of things., When I was in middle school, I experienced a lot of bullying and it really just created a lot of depression, a lot of self-doubt, a lot of self-esteem issues and. To the extreme of creating some sort of some suicidal ideation. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, and also self-harming. And so when my parents noticed I was self-harming, they got me a therapist. Mm-hmm., And I worked with her for, I wanna say about a year and a half. And it was one of the most life-changing experiences I've had. Like, it just opened up my world. It allowed me to feel more comfortable in my skin and who I was, and just. Just felt more able to be me and safe to be me, if that makes sense., And so because of that experience and, and just the tremendous impact that she had and really helping me do that work to help heal myself it really motivated me to want to do the same. And also too, my grandfather, he was a marriage and family therapist. Um, and so it's, I feel like it's kind of just been in my blood. Like he always said, whenever, when I was a kid, little, little kid all the way up until even now, um, he always notices that I'm just observing and watching. And he always thought that that was just something that almost would just be like this natural skill that would really serve me well in. My work as a therapist and in being a therapist, and so I just kind of fell into it and just really fell in love with it. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Very cool. Well, and just curious, so your journey, it was high school and then in undergrad, did you have the idea gonna be a therapist? Like did you do like psychology or something? Just curious. Yeah. Um, I took my first psychology class in high school as like an elective. And it blew my mind. Like, uh, prior to high school, I, I really thought I wanted to join the Marines. I don't know why, but I really wanted to join the Marines. But then after that psychology course, like it, everything just seemed to click and it just all just made so, so much sense to me and it just, it just flowed so naturally. And I, I just fell in love with it right then and there. And so when I got into undergrad, I had two thoughts in my mind. Maybe I'll be an English teacher for high school, or maybe a psychologist or therapist. And then I changed my major to English, and then as soon as I changed it, like I, I just didn't feel right. Mm-hmm. Um, and so then the next day I went and changed my major to psychology. And I just felt, I felt okay. Like it just felt like a weight was lifted off of me. It felt like. I was there doing what I was supposed to be doing. And so because of that, just feeling that I got from it I felt like this is where I need to be and, and what I need to do. Mm-hmm. And I, I love it. Yeah. Very cool. That's amazing. And with that, you went to a marriage and family graduate program., Was it your grandpa's influence is why you picked that? Just curious about why. Why the hell would you wanna work with couples and families? Yeah. I mean, initially, like I really had no idea that couples or families was where I was gonna go. Okay. And so when I was in my graduate program for social work, the first year I was in an internship at a school. I working in the high school level and elementary level, and just my supervisor. She was an alumni of the Marriage and Family Therapy training program that I went to. And just because of our supervision just the way she saw my mind working when I was working with students and the work that I wanted to do with them, she really, really thought like I had just had a clinical orientation and she really suggested like going into Denver Family Institute and having that be my internship because she just really thought that. My clinical mindset, the analytical mindset that I have would just really, really serve well in the work with individuals or families and couples in therapy. Yeah. And so I went and applied for that and I made it and got it in. And then my first year was just working with individuals and families. And then my second year was with couples and. I immediately fell in love with working with couples. Like the first couple I worked with. It just like, it just felt natural. Mm-hmm. And I just loved it. Very cool. Well, I want to get a little bit more into couples therapy, but before there, and obviously feel free to pass Brandon, you know, going back your time with the therapist, you mentioned the middle school bullying. What about, the therapist? Your work with her was so helpful. If you feel comfortable sharing. That's a really good question. The one thing that I really, really remember her kinda giving to me as like a homework assignment or a therapy assignment mm-hmm. Was to create my own list of kind of rules, values that I kind of wanted to live my life according to. Rather than all the shoulds that I thought I had to live up to. And I remember it was like this three page long list and she had me put it on my wall in my bedroom, and every single day when I woke up, I would just read through this list. Mm-hmm. Almost kind of like affirmations, but not really. Yeah. Um, and it just allowed me to just, I don't know, feel more connected with me and just feel. More comfortable living in my own skin in the way I wanted to live, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And, and so that just had this really profound impact of, it doesn't matter if like in a sense of whatever they think, whatever anybody else says. So long as I'm okay with my truth and who I am, that's fine in the sense of kind of thinking and as it relates to RLT, it's kind of like our psychological boundaries of the internal and. Our internal boundaries of our protective and our containing. Mm-hmm. And so it really kind of really, I, I will, I will say, kind of strengthened that protective boundary that I had. Mm-hmm. So it allowed me to just kind of move through life and be okay with me, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Well, I'm, I'm so glad that you had that experience with your therapist. Just curious, does she know that you're a therapist? She doesn't the, it's horrible. I actually forgot her name. Yeah. And I've, I've been trying to figure out where her name is so I could reach out to her and let her know. Very cool. But very cool nevertheless, I mean, the fact you got that guidance that support from her, the perspective, the tools, I think it's so important. You know, just generally. I know you were younger then, but just males in therapy, I feel like often males, because of stigma we miss out on getting the benefits of doing individual therapy and so I think that is great. And you know, looking back on it, although you didn't ask, I'm gonna make it about myself, in high school. It was a particularly tough time for me. You know, there was, I, I had an identity CRI crisis. I played football. I think I was good at it, but I wasn't a football player. I was like a stoner dude, punk rock dude, and subject to some bullying and what I did, I just got drunk and high, right? Those are my coping tools and looking back on it as a therapist now. Damn. I could have used some of that help. Oh yeah. Yeah. And they're great ways of escaping, that's for sure. Totally. Quick and easy. And then I found the niche of people, we were like the stoner jock dudes. Right. But, um, going back to couples therapy. And you mentioned trained in relational life therapy. I wanted you to talk about what you enjoy about couples and also about RLT. So choose your own adventure. Yeah, i'll start with, couples. So I mean. And that's a really good question.'cause, like my first thought is, I don't know. Mm-hmm. But then my second thought is every single day and every single session, even with couples who I've met for three months, or longer, like each session,, it's always different. Mm-hmm. And I just love how it's always different. It's always changing, it's always moving. And even if it isn't different. It, there's always just many different directions to go. Like, one thing I always like to say with all couples or all clients really is it's all connected. It really all is. And so in the sense of it doesn't really matter what direction we go in the session because it's, it's connected in the sense that it's gonna go to where we need to go in the sense of just trusting the process. And I just really love doing that with not just, well, I do love individual therapy, but I also really love doing it with two other people in the room too. Yeah. So very cool and so it's different. And trusting the process and it sounds like you use a lot of your therapeutic intuition, just as guidance if that's fair. Yeah. I mean the one, one lesson that I got from my undergraduate career is from this one psychology professor of when you're doing the work in therapy. If you're operating from your head, you're doing it wrong. Oh, and she said, in therapy, if you're a great therapist or great therapists operate and show up from their heart. And it's in the sense of kind of both. And not just that heart, but also like both. And and when you show up with a heart, like in sessions. It is such a different feeling, like the world just fades away and it's just you and the couple. And that is just really kind of one of the ways that I like to show up with couples, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So in a way, and feel free, maybe I'm going too far. It is almost like. A spiritual practice, but you're getting paid for it. I don't know if that resonates. Yeah, I mean like one of part of the reason why I love RLT. Yeah. And Terry Real, not just'cause he is Jewish, but yeah, I have like that connection with him. Yeah. Because I'm Jewish as well and I forget where he was talking about it. He was asked a question and what he answered is there's like this Jewish saying of, um, it's in a sense of like God working through you. And sometimes in sessions like when I'm working with couples, I'll have like this thought or this idea that just comes in and I go with it and I don't know where the heck it came from. I don't know how the heck I got it, but it just shows up and it comes in and it's almost like, like Yahweh working through me or like God working through me. And the sense of like, yeah, it is almost like a spiritual practice. Yeah. Very cool wow. Amazing. So the listeners know Terry Real, who you mentioned is both of our mentor and he created relational life therapy that we're both trained in, also known as RLT. Can you talk a little bit about that modality? Yeah. So, the typical spiel I give Yeah. It's a lot different than other couples therapy. Um, like different than EFT, different than Gottman in that when I work with couples, there's not just one problem, but two problems in the room. In the sense that more often than not, not all problems are 50 50. Mm-hmm. Sometimes they are, but not always. Sometimes they're 70 30, sometimes 60 40, sometimes even 99 1. Um, and so in a sense, the ways in which RLT are really, really different is that when I'm working with a couple, I don't beat around the bush. Um, I don't like to beat around the bush. I don't think it does any good to help them be where, where they're wanting to be. Um, and so to be blunt and explicit with it, it's in a sense naming those hard truths with each partner in the sense of how they are showing up in the relationship in ways that are getting in their own way or blowing off their own foot. And so. That's kind of the ways in which it's different. And also too, it's a higher level change in the sense of like, not just first order change, but second order change, in the sense of really kind of discrepancies and really being able to kinda hold like the both. Prior experiences that are really informing how we're showing up in the moment and the present moment and kind of differentiating between the, that was the past and these are familiar feelings, but this is now and this is different. So I don't know if that makes sense. Hopefully that's, but yeah. Yeah. That's how. RLT is a bit different. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. What, and can you say a little bit more about first order change? Second order change? Yeah. So the first order change is in the sense of like if I were to give a client or partner something for them to do within the relationship to change how they're showing up. And then the second order changes more so kind of. Something that they can do that will create change or inform change within the system. So it's not just in a sense, that individual, but informing the system changing. Yeah. So that's kind of where the higher level changes, if that makes sense. Oh yeah, totally. So in a way. I am not a helpless victim in my relationship. I can do something about it. Exactly. Yeah. It's, and it's in a sense of getting really intentional and really like becoming the creator of your own relationship in your own world and your own life. Mm-hmm. And it's not necessarily to the extent of like controlling'cause that is a losing strategy. Yeah. Yeah. But it's more so in a sense of your own locus of control. Mm-hmm. Not necessarily. Controlling everything outside of that, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. Do you feel, maybe this is a deeper question. The idea of having the locus of control and being aware that I can do something about it instead of just blaming my partner, is that a developmental thing or maturity? I don't know where I'm going with that, but it seems like that is harder for some people than others. I don't know if you've found that too. Yeah. And part of me, like I kind of go to, in a sense like family of origin experiences. Mm-hmm. In the sense of, it makes me think of, um, a story Terry real tales of how when he would get home from school, his dad just was unpredictable. He didn't know how his dad would be, how his dad would act. And one day he was coming home with a report card, and I think he was in like fourth grade or maybe in middle school. And he had all Ds on the report card. And he was petrified of like how his dad is gonna react when he sees it. Dad came home, he shows dad the report card and his dad looks at the report card and just says, oh, those dumb ass teachers don't know how to teach you at all. Mm-hmm. It's nothing wrong with you. It's because of those teachers Yeah. Who don't know how to teach my son who's a genius. Yeah. And so then that sent kind of this unspoken, subtle message of. It is okay. It's not you. It's them. Yeah. That you're all good. You're fine. You're perfect. It's them. And so when Terry then grew up as he was kind of going through school, he just had D's, F's throughout high school, throughout college, just because of the sense of. That message that his dad sent him of, it's not you, it's these other people. Yeah. You are a genius. You know what you need to do. It's them. And so in a sense, it's kind of those unspoken and spoken messages that we receive when we're kids that really can inform how we're gonna show up as an adult in the sense of blame and kind of how we cast blame. Mm-hmm. And taking accountability. Yeah, for sure. And I know you're not Terry, and I've definitely heard that story before. How did he learn accountability? If you were to guess? Like if we were to like psychoanalyze Terry, and I'm thinking of it myself too. I'm going on a side note like I grew up. Where my dad was pretty judgmental in general of us at times, but also of my mom. And so how do you think I can show up sometimes towards Jess, my wife? Judgmental. In a way it was modeled and I try to be aware and maybe I'm answering myself, just present. Well, first I need to know that's an issue. Right. And I think that one of the big, one of the benefits of couples therapy, Hey, this is an issue, what you're doing to have that awareness and then having the desire to do something about it. But what I do simply is try to be mindful. So that's one way. How do you think Terry, or how do you coach people to do something different to just blame other people. Yeah. I mean, it makes me think of, the idea of leverage within couples therapy. Yeah. In the sense of just human beings, just living creatures in general. We move away towards pain, move towards things that feel good, pleasure, um, and in the sense of. In couples therapy when I'm working with a couple, like when we are joining through the truth and like the first couple of phases of therapy or the first couple of sessions, it's me in a sense kind of holding up the mirror to a client. And so as I'm thinking about it. And also too, and taking into account what you were saying in the sense of like being able to just be aware of it. Mm-hmm. In the sense of like that it is a problem. Is like in a sense, I think the first step. Yeah. Because I always like to say to couples like, when you see it, you can then have choice, and then when you have choice, you can then do something different. Yes. And so. From my perspective, I, I don't know. I could be completely wrong. Yeah. Because I don't know what was going on in Terry's world when it was happening, but I mean, I imagine if it was me, I'd be looking at my grades being like, what the hell is wrong?, And really, really struggling and wanting to be doing better, and really realizing that the only way that I can do better is if I actually decide to put in that work and that effort in it myself. Yeah. And I think being able to see that first of. Oh, I'm not doing the work, so makes sense then why I'm not having all these good grades that I won't get or that I want. Mm-hmm. I think that's like the first step, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think hopefully maybe that was where Terry first was able to notice it and then when he noticed it, then he made that decision of, this isn't what I want to be doing. Yeah, for sure. Like there, this is not congruent with who I am. This is not what I want to be doing and society. Will give you that feedback. Right. What you're doing, blaming other people is not working. Yeah, generally. Yeah. Yeah. Let me share. One of my kind of like wake up calls, I was at Metro State and I was deep into cocaine, partying, going to punk rock shows. I'm doing a reminiscent, it was the house where we lived at was like a block away from the Alon Theater, which is totally different, but they'd always have like punk shows there Big picture was kind of a good time till it wasn't right. Uh, at Metro State, the dude's like. I was on academic probation and he said, Jason, what the hell are you doing here? Mm-hmm. Right? If you don't get your grades up, you can't stay here. And I'm like, this is Metro State, man. Like this was back in the day, but this was my second school. And so finally I had to look in the mirror, right? And realize, Hey, my dad's not gonna get me out of this one, right? Mm-hmm. But it's almost like you need that. You know, outside, I don't know what's the right word? Um, teaching, being like, you can't just fuck around and like hope things are gonna be okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I'm, I consider myself kind of lucky in that I had that experience in my freshman year in high school. Because like, I had all Fs wasn't doing well at all. And then I had a counselor who was the most amazing counselor I believe. Ever. Yeah. In the world. And she put me in this program, it was called Sophomore Enrichment Seminar. Okay. And in that program, it really, really got me into the mindset of like, this is my life. And in a sense of if I want to do well, then it's up to me to do the work. To do well. Mm-hmm. And I can't just sit here and do nothing and then hope that, yeah, I'm gonna get an A. And so that was in a sense, my moment for me to really see what I was doing and then have a choice of doing something different. Great. Well, this ties into the idea of, of being direct. You mentioned joining through the truth, and just to kind of piggyback on what you said, joining through the truth is telling someone. The truth of the behavior that might be getting in the way of what they want, but we're doing it in a way that conveys, I'm on your side. Mm-hmm. But this is very important because I think that it's not, you know, we can say care confrontation, right? But we need that feedback that this is not working and in a fact it's a gift. Oh yeah. Right. And then, so I need that feedback even for my wife, Jason. I don't like your judgment. Right. Or I need, my feedback from my therapist. Yeah. Jason, this is a small fucking problem in the big scheme of things, right? This was actually a conversation yesterday with my therapist, right. But it was in a loving way, right? But sometimes we need that feedback because I think we sometimes, some of us, including myself, a tendency to avoid. But being direct can actually be a gift. I don't know if you had piggyback on that or Oh, yeah. Thoughts. Oh, I mean, it really can like it stings. Mm-hmm. But I mean, it can be a gift. Yeah.'cause in the sense of, like, one thing I always tell couples is as their therapist. I stand between the things that they want in their relationship and the things that they don't want in their relationship. Yeah. And it's up to them to decide which direction we go through the work that they do. Mm-hmm. Or if they do any work. Yeah. And so in the sense that. When I am letting a client know like, Hey, there is a part of you that is showing up in a way where you're acting like a constipated rager. Mm-hmm. Yeah. For that client, it's gonna sting to hear. But also to know like, oh shoot I'm being a constipated rager. Yeah. Like, who wants to be a constipated rager? Yeah. Yeah. And that stings, that sucks. And so, okay, what do you want to do about it? Yeah. Do you want to work with me to figure out a way for you to stand up for yourself in a way that's gonna not harm all of those around you and yourself? Or do you wanna keep doing what it is that you're doing? Great. So it's kind of like an, an option, right? Yeah. Like I, I like to put it on the client.'cause at the end of the day, it's, it's their life. It's, it's not mine. Very cool. Side note, what is your definition of constipated rager? Just curious. Um so it's in a sense of, I like to describe it as, a subtle retaliation or,, a kind of covert retaliation in the sense of like, it's passive aggression. Terry describes it as like, it's war. So it can show up in the sense of like, well, I'm not gonna give to you because you didn't give to me, or, well, you were really mean to me and made me feel this way, so I'm gonna try and show up in a way that's gonna make you feel the same way that I felt so that you can understand how you made me feel. Mm-hmm. Um, and. It never works, ever. Mm-hmm. It's only gonna create more, uh, it just goes up and up and up and up and it never ends. I got it. Well, can you say a little bit about narcissism? Yeah. You know, whichever direction you want to go with that. Like it shows up in a relationship or just kind of how you view it. Hopefully it's the right way of viewing it, but, um, I really think in terms of when I'm sitting across from a client, like for example, when I'm working with a couple around infidelity for our betraying partner or I mean our involved partner for them, the question isn't necessarily why you did it, but it's more so. What held you back from the No. Or did you forget about the No. What held you back from saying no? Did you not remember It? Were, did you not care? Did you feel like you were entitled to it? And more often than not, the whole reason why I go into that with couples around infidelity is in a sense for that involved partner to express. Guilt to express, remorse to express the pain and the fact that they're seeing the pain and the hurt that they put onto their partner. And when I hear clients do that, or if it's in clients or with couples around infidelity or not around infidelity, regardless when there is that remorse, the guilt for how your behavior impacted those around you. The thing that I like to tell my clients is good. Mm-hmm. It should. Yeah. It should hurt. Yeah. Because the things that we do, at the end of the day, yeah, we can't make anybody feel anything, but at the end of the day, it is gonna have an impact. And if the things that I'm doing are hurting this other person, if I'm caring about the fact that my behaviors and my actions hurt this other person. Then at the end of the day, I can say that that person more likely than not, probably is not a narcissist. Mm-hmm. Because real narcissists who I've sat across from sociopath, psychopaths, they don't give a shit. Yeah. Like, they just don't give a shit. Yeah. And so that's almost like that one defining feature I'll say. Got it. Of narcissism. Got it. And there's all different kinds of narcissism. Um, like I really say it's. It's become a buzzword at this point. Mm-hmm. Um, and so the idea of narcissism has kind of gotten a bit muddied, I'll say in like kind of pop culture, but, in mental health in a sense. That's where I kind of. Go, if that makes sense. Yeah. So kind of like what is the empathy, is there the remorse for how they show up and how their behaviors impact those around them? Yeah. And if there is, awesome. And then if not, then there's a good chance I might be dealing with some sort of type of yeah. If that makes sense. I got it. Type of it. Do you feel that someone who may be describing what you're seeing lacked the empathy accountability? Do you feel that you can teach that? If someone can learn that, I think Remedially you can. In a sense, I know that that is, it's kind of the work when working with individuals who have a type of narcissism is really, really working with them on being aware of how their behaviors do impact those around them. And in a sense of installing the programming for remedial empathy in the sense of kind of thinking in terms of like putting myself in the other person's shoes. I got it. And so you feel that can be installed and practiced? I believe it can. I will say, there may be almost a,. Maybe a limit to it, I would say. Yeah, I, I'm gonna say like a limit to it, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. I got it. And I know we talked, have you seen the Sopranos? I actually have not. Oh, that's right. You, yeah. Okay. I need to, um, I just wanted to know your diagnosis of, uh, Tony Soprano, but, uh. Anyway. Yeah, the dude, he was kind of on, the realms of sociopathic, but how they portrayed it, it's like he really liked the guy. You know, it's like he was not a good guy, but it's like, how it is is like open. He trying to do his best for his family, and so you ended up kind of liking him. But anyway, yeah, and, so I don't want to get like too deep into the legian. Yeah. But I mean, so I know like one type of narcissism is, like a vulnerable narcissism. Yeah. Ah, and that one, it's, that one's like really covert, I'll say. Yeah. Because more often than not, they view themselves as like healthy, superior. They view themselves as like having really good empathy. Yeah. And then when others who are in that individual's life are assessed on that individual's level of empathy, it's very skewed. Yeah. Um, and so that's kind of a vulnerable narcissist., It's very, very covert. Like they, they do show up with, they're very charming. It does feel like empathy, but it's empathy with almost a goal or an intention, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I got it. Interesting. So vulnerable narcissists. And so would others be general narcissists or are there different categories? Oh yeah, there's your experience. Yeah. Oh yeah. Like, um, there's a malignant narcissism, which is like that, really kind extreme level of narcissism. But then there's, the vulnerable narcissism, which is kind of like the rejection sensitivity. As I was saying earlier, like really, really viewing themselves as like superior, but also like healthy. The idea of grandiosity, when it shows up, it just blunts our ability to be relational. yeah. Blunts our ability to be empathetic and it really just blunts our ability to just show up in those intentional ways. Yeah. Which, so I can definitely empathize with and resonate with the impacts of grandiosity. Yeah, but the thing about grandiosity to the draw to be one up, judgmental, it's like our ego. It feels good. I dunno. Yeah. Yeah, that's, I always describe it as that's the trap of grandiosity. Yeah. Yeah. Is it feels good. For sure. Very cool. Brandon, anything else that you would like to share about narcissism, couples therapy, RLT. Your journey? Anything like that? Yeah, I mean, I just love the work. Mm-hmm. Like, it's truly revolutionary work. Mm-hmm. Um, like when I was in my graduate program in social work, like one of the big things that they talk about is kind of, there's like our micro level practice, our mezzo level, and then our macro. Mm-hmm. And our micro level is kind of like what we're doing now. It's like in the sense of like. Uh, me sitting with another individual or like a small, small group, like working with a couple. Also too, I might say a couple could fit within maybe Mezo. Um, but like our families are, yeah, bigger kind of like, uh, like our towns our neighborhoods, um, our communities that we live in. That's our, like our mezo. And then we have our macro, our national kind of like bigger level kind of communities. And, the work that we do, even though it's micro work and it's not like working on the big systems even. Even though it's that micro level work, it is still, from my perspective, tremendously revolutionary. Mm-hmm. Because this work is in the sense of like it's differentiation. It's the idea of deciding what of those things that were handed down to you are things that you want to continue, and what are those things that halt and are stopping and ending with you. Mm-hmm. And that brings peace to all those who came before you. And it brings peace to all of those who are gonna follow and it's profound. Mm-hmm. And, and that's part of the reason why I love this work. Mm-hmm. Because it's not just creating change within the couples or their relationship, but it's also to creating change in the possibility of like, how they're gonna be as parents, how they're gonna be a family. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then forming how that kiddo is gonna grow up and how they're gonna be in a relationship, how they're gonna move throughout the world. And so that's. One of the many reasons of why I really, really love this work in couples therapy. Yeah. It's just revolutionary. Yeah. Awesome. That's super. Well put, and that is your reason why, your motivation. And that's freaking awesome. I love it. Yeah. Every day. Well, cool, Brandon. So obviously if anyone wants to work with Brandon, on the, allstar list of our, therapist team, um, there'll be a link in the, the show notes. So anyway, Brandon, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. Oh, of course. Thank you for taking the time.