61: Relationship lessons from Dr. Laura Louis

In this episode, Dr. Laura Louis, a seasoned couples therapist, shares her insights and experiences from her 20-year career.

She discusses the challenges and joys of working with couples, the importance of effective communication, and how vulnerability and emotional intimacy play crucial roles in relationships.

Dr. Laura also discusses common issues such as the negative sentiment override, the impact of family of origin, and practical strategies for improving relational dynamics.

 Introduction
 Dr. Laura's Background
 Challenges of Couples Therapy
 Creating Connection in Relationships
 Men and Feelings
 Effective Communication Tools
 Signs You Should Seek Couples Therapy
 Stonewalling and Taking Breaks
 Final Thoughts and Resources

Link to Dr. Laura Louis' Atlanta Couple Therapy practice.

Her book Martial Peace

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You can learn more about Jason's couple therapy practice here.

Transcript

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Hey, everyone. I want to share a conversation I had with Dr. Laura. A seasoned couples therapist who shares her insights and experiences from her 20 year career. She owns Atlanta couple of therapy, and she also is a speaker and an author. We had a really cool conversation. She talks about. her story, why she started working with couples. And she shares very practical. And actionable advice to have a better relationship. Check it out. But first I'm going to introduce the show. Welcome everyone. This is solving disconnection and creating connected relationships for couples and parents. My name is Jason Polk, and I've worked this exclusively with couples as a therapist and coach for over 10 years. On this podcast, I share my experience professionally. Personally and those of our amazing guests. Dr. Laura, thank you so much for being on the podcast. how are things going for you? Things are going well. Things are going well. I really love what I do. I have a couples retreat coming up and I'm super excited about that. So yeah, things are going well. Yeah, that's great. And so our listeners know you are a couples therapist in Atlanta. Yes, I own a couples therapy practice, Atlanta couple therapy. Um, I also have a online academy is called the after I do academy where every single month a group of couples are able to get support and also a vault of trainings around like intimacy, communication, rebuilding trust. And then I also have a book marital peace that I wrote. Okay. So, you know, a thing or two about relationships. I've been in this field for 20 years, so yeah, I love what I do. Yeah, well, that's great. Um, well, so many places to start, but, you know, of course I want to ask about the couples retreat you have coming up, but before we get into that. What made you, get into the field of counseling, therapy, become a couples therapist and, you know, wherever you'd like to start, I'd love to hear it. Um, growing up in my family I saw a lot of divorce, like literally everybody in my family divorced. Um, parents, my grandparents, aunts, uncles. And so I was always curious about relationships and what it took to make relationships work, because I would always like watch television and couples would seem very happy. Like I would watch the Cosby show and just always feel so. interested in like, how, like, how are people having this long lasting love even as a child, as a small child. So once I got to college, I knew right away that I was going to work with couples and study like healthy relationships. So when I got to Howard university for my PhD, Like right away, I was determined that I was going to write my dissertation on,, marital satisfaction. So, yeah, it's been a long time coming. And I always say, ever since I was a kid, that's when I first really knew this is the field for me. Yeah, well, that that's great. That's great. I want to say to for our listeners, working with couples, from my perspective, is one of the hardest things to do in our discipline of therapy. What's your take on that? I actually like it. I love it. I prefer it. To individual therapy. I think it's something about the dynamic between couples, seeing how couples interact, seeing them go from sitting on opposite sides of the couch to seeing them sit a little bit closer, or seeing one spouse that maybe started out, like, really angry, seeing them, like, lean on their spouse's shoulder, or put their hand on their, on their partner's leg. Like, I love the interaction part of it. Hmm that's great. Well, I want to ask a very general question. What moves couples from being disconnected, sit on opposite sides of the couch, to moving closer to each other, to feeling more connected? I know there's so many places to go with that, but what comes to mind for you? I like, um, what Sue Johnston calls hot cognitions, like what we, when we're feeling like strong emotion and the stories that we, we tell ourselves. And so I think that as couples start to tell themselves a new story about themselves, their marriage, their future. I think that has the biggest impact. And also vulnerability, emotional intimacy, being able to, to be open, with your spouse, even when things aren't going well. Yeah, my perspective on vulnerability well, if you share vulnerability, if you're sharing something vulnerable, you can give something for your partner to connect with. Also, the practice is creating emotional intimacy. And I don't know if you agree with that or not. I 100 percent agree with that. And I think it's so powerful, um, emotional intimacy. And so usually in my sessions with, with couples, I'll have some component where they aren't talking directly to me, but they're talking to each other. And it's so powerful sometimes when they really have that aha moment where they can see each other and hear each other. And sometimes it may be something that their spouses say over and over and over and over and over again, but when they're locking hand to hand and need a knee and, and that heart space is opened up, like those are the moments when I see such powerful transformation. Yeah, that's great. And can you say a little bit because I'm not too familiar with, um, Sue Johnson's work, but you mentioned the new story. So her work is called Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. And within Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy, there's this concept called hot cognitions. And so within hot cognitions, there may be a moment where. You're asking a couple like what, what happened and they are like, okay, this is what happened. And you say, okay, well, how did you feel about that? Or what did you think about that? And they may say, Oh, nothing is fine. And just like kind of dismiss what just happened, like the feeling there. And then so you're leaning into that feeling of so nothing, so you don't, so when we talk about, um, your spouse. Cheating on you. You don't feel anything. And so it's like leaning more into, into what they're saying when they are just missing the feeling. And then helping them to re narrate the story. So say for example, they stand with, Oh, they cheated, but I'm over it. It's fine. We just need to move on. Um, and so re narrating the story is. Like in this particular case is, is that like, is that right? That you felt nothing is, and then them getting to a space where they can connect, with what the feeling is and their story about that feeling. So in a way that the feelings, and this is going to sound sort of silly, also myself being a couple of, therapist, what you're seeing is feelings are huge. Or like a good place to start for couples. It's interesting. I have, I have a few different views on that. I'd love to hear. So I think that feelings are very important. I do think that they are important. I'll start off with that. And in addition to that, I think that they're not everything. And I think sometimes we can put too much,, Too much emphasis on how I feel like I feel depressed. I don't feel like getting up I don't feel like getting out of bed. So I'm just gonna stay here cuz this is cuz I feel sad I don't think we can I don't think we should give our feelings that much power at some point we need to think about like, am I living the life that, that I want to live? Or are my feelings running my life? So I, I think it's a little bit of gray in there in terms of feeling. Yeah. So maybe in other words. I'm feeling anxious I don't want to do the podcast right or i'm feeling anxious. I don't want to speak in public So i'm just not going to do it Yes, when maybe your breakthrough is on the other side of facing your fears like this podcast that you created is It's so amazing and transforming lives and if the fear or the anxiety of well What will people think or I don't really feel like doing if that like took over everything then? People's lives wouldn't be transformed in the way that they are. Yeah, I got it. So what about, because this comes up a lot, men and feelings can you talk about it? But maybe like More specifically, at least things that I see men are not necessarily encouraged, I think culturally. And so that could be like how you grew up to share feelings. The idea is kind of like logic is better feelings. No thanks. What are your thoughts around that? That's a great question. You're asking so many good questions. Alright, thanks. Um, I see it in multiple layers. So, one, I think you are 100 percent correct that society does not support men in expressing their feelings and expressing vulnerability. It's not. Considered masculine or socially acceptable a lot of times when we see little boys and they're crying be a big boy don't cry and that that affects how men relate to their feelings and then some people will tell me like when it comes to couples counseling usually it's the woman that is booking the session with me and then she'll say oh he don't want to come here i want to open up all of these things but then once They do get into therapy and we start doing this deeper work. I see there are a lot of feelings there. And sometimes because men may not express their feelings in the same way that women do, sometimes those feelings get dismissed. Yeah. Well, how do they, from your experience, men do express feelings? What are some like common ways? Sometimes it may look like, it's still like sex is just a checklist to you. And I think, like for me as a couple of therapists, I'm looking at the underlying logging underneath the complaint. So the underlying longing is I want to feel desired. I want to know that you want me just as much as I want you. The words are not there, but. I think listening beyond the surface,, we can feel that. So the idea for males, I would like more sex. And underneath that, it's kind of a longing for their partner, or they want to feel desired. Mm hmm. I got it. Well, that's interesting, too. One of my mentors, Terry Real, are you familiar with some of this stuff? Yeah. Yeah. He talks about us males culturally acceptable emotions are anger and lust. Okay. And so that kind of puts males in a box, but it's almost like the lust or the sex is the only outlet for, emotions. But what you're saying is if they can communicate, I want to feel desired, gosh,, I really am missing you. I'm longing for our connection. But oftentimes. And feel free to correct us. Women hear that it's give me sex. I want sex. I'm going to have sex yet. Um, when, when can we have sex? Feel free to correct that. Yeah. That's when, when a lot of times it's, it's, it's so much deeper than that. A lot of times from my male clients, a lot of times I'm hearing a desire to be pleased and a desire to please, like not wanting to just like, Oh, check the box of happiness. to know that I did a good job, that you, that you enjoyed this time of us being together. I just, the woman just laying there like, okay, let me know when you're done, but actively engaged. Can you,, just thoughts on Well, this is a common case, but that is, let's say the male partner wants more sex,, but the female partner is like, I only want to have sex if we're feeling emotionally connected. But the male partner is like, well, I feel emotional connection via sex. Right. And then the male partner is like, well, there must be something wrong with you, um, that you don't desire me anymore. How would you help that couple out? One of the things that I like to do is called the imago dialogue in my session. And in the amogal dialogue, the couple is facing each other. It's kind of like active listening on steroids. One person is the listener and one person is the speaker. And the speaker is avoiding all you statements. You did this, you did that. The person's avoiding all of that and just focusing in on what they desire, the meaning of that desire to them. And then their partner is just, Saying like what I'm hearing you say what what I imagine you mean is this and then them saying yes Or no this yes, that's right. That's what I mean or no What I really want you to hear is this and so I think that helps in that type of dynamic Where they really need to like empathize or step into each other's shoes Even when their perspectives on the issue is different so what you're saying in a way to Is the first step is to start talking about it, but in a way where you can like hear what each other are saying. Yes. And then also validation. That's the third level of the Mago dialogue is having some part where. I'll ask the listener, I'll say, is there any part of what he said that you can validate? I'm not saying that you have to agree with every single thing that your spouse said, but is there any part of what they said that you can validate? And in those moments, I often find that they do find a part of what their spouse said that resonates with them. And it's so transformative when you can hear your etiquette. Experience be heard, understood, and validated by your spouse. And after that, that's when we can get into problem solving and to like, okay, well, how can we make it so that you both are getting some of what you want? And it may not be that we're having sex every night, but it's not that we're having sex once a month either. And, and we're also attending to her needs of emotional validation. Like she may be needing. Um, that emotional intimacy right after a fight that's going to help her open up to being more physical with them. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. Sometimes, this happens at least, my experience say,, the couple has just had kids and the female partner is saying, Oh my gosh, I'm like just touched out or my body has changed. I don't know if I have a question there. That happens so often after a woman has a baby, her body has changed. She is hormonal. Like she's experiencing things that she never experienced before. She may not be feeling as attractive as she once did. And then also they're not sleeping because the baby's waking up every two hours. And so it's a period of just adjusting to what their new normal looks like. Yeah, for sure. What's the best way that a male Could support their partner through this, you know, I guess traditionally female partner through, Oh my gosh, like things are changing. I have to take care of this kid. I have, a couple that I was working with and I heard it once said, um, Help is the new foreplay. And so, and so in some cases, what may help is doing things for them, taking some of the things off of, your wife or partner's plate. So that she's not feeling so overburdened with all of taking care of all of the things and she has more capacity to be able to to meet her spouse's needs that way. Yeah, yeah, I got it. That makes sense. So help is a new foreplay. I think I'm gonna have to use that line with certain couples that I work with. I like that. Well, I just curious, why is communication tools like the imago dialogue providing validation to each other how come we don't normally do that? Like how can we never learn that, I guess I'm getting like a bigger picture, right? But it's like gosh, some of those things are so important, but we never learn that right? Yeah Communication is such a valuable skill set. Um, but it's not a lot of spaces that we are trained in how to communicate. I mean, outside of our field where we're trained to the limit on communication, I think, and like the regular lay person doesn't. Get a lot of, training on things like this. And so, as a result, sometimes what I see in my practice is that people listen to respond. Like, as soon as you take a break, I'm gonna go in. Like, uh uh, I see that happen. When couples get into this phase of negative sentiment override where they're so upset and angry about everything that they're not listening to what their spouse is saying. The actual intention. Yeah. And so a lot of what you help couples with is just slow down and actually just listen. That's a big part of the work is slowing down to really take it fully in and it's hard. It is not easy. It is hard for couples because sometimes I'll see that one person may be the listener. Let's say the male is the speaker and the female is the listener. A lot of times what one person may hear and what the other person said is totally different because they're filtering it through their lens. They're filtering it through like things that they may have argued about before. And so they're really not listening. And so I think that checking in to see, did I get that right? Like, so I'm hearing you say this. Did I get that right? That part is such a crucial step because sometimes it's not, it's not correct. Yeah, but even sharing, did I get that right? You're communicating that you care and you're trying to understand, you know, but like things we don't learn, right? Like, where's the class on this? Yeah, but say, hey, perfect. That's your work, right? And you're doing a workshop, right? I mean, is that some of the things that you do in your workshop? Yeah. Yes. And then after I do Academy, I talk about communication a lot because communication is one of the number one reasons why couples divorce. It's not money, it's not sex. Mm-Hmm. It's not infidelity. It's, did you hear me? do you understand what I'm saying? Is what I'm, does what I'm saying matter to you? It's, it's the communication that in so many marriages. Yeah. And in relational life therapy modality, I've been trained in, as I mentioned his name for like the third time, uh, Terry says, and feel free to push back on this. It's a generalization. He says an angry woman is an unheard woman. Um, but I think there's a lot of truth there. And I've said that in sessions and the female partner was talking to was like, yep, exactly. Oh, I gotta write that down. That was good, Sam. That was really good. Yeah, thanks, but it's essentially like slowing down to what you're saying in communication. Gosh, if we could just slow down and listen to each other, that could solve, a big percentage. I think it would solve a lot of problems in marriages if we could slow down, if we could connect and listen, free of distraction, without the television on, without checking social media every five seconds, just really in tune with each other. Yes. Okay. You mentioned the negative sentiment override and,, for the listeners, think John Gottman said something like that. Positive, sentiment, negative sentiment. But essentially what that is, is that things have happened. Ruptures, disagreements, things gone unrepaired. And so it's we have a lens where we see our partner in a negative way. And that can, I assume, attribute to the lack of listening, right? You're saying something to me right now, but I don't care because I'm viewing you in a negative lens. I'm waiting for you to stop talking for me to tell you how you're wrong. Yes. It happens a lot in marriage and unfortunately people wait so long in that space before ever seeking help. Yeah. And I don't know if anything comes to mind for you, what are some red flags or warning signs that you are starting to develop that negative sentiment override? And then when those red flags comes up, that means you go to couple therapy, right? It means you go see,, Dr. Laura,, fly to Atlanta, right. Or go online to your academy, other common, like things that people can be aware of. Mhm. So dr john Gottman, a researcher out of Seattle, he did what's called longitudinal studies and he studied couples over years and in some cases decades to find what were some of the predictors of relationships being able to stand the test of time. And he found that there were four main predictors of relationships not working out. And so those four things are criticism, contempt, stonewalling, and defensiveness. These are some of the red flags that couples should watch out for. Can you share a little bit about that? Like, criticism, maybe like an example comes to mind for you? Sure. Sure. So criticism is when you attack the core of who your your spouse is. So it's not that we're talking about. You didn't wash the dishes. No, you're a lazy person. Or, it's not that you didn't get me anything for my birthday. Like you are not thoughtful. so instead of focusing in on the behavior attacking who your partner is either through,, name calling or cursing or, um, it's more about, The attack, on their, their personal. I got it. Yeah. And so what he would suggest is instead we state our feelings using I statements that express a positive me. So one of the things I talk about with my couples is instead of saying like you're lazy saying, um, when X happened, I felt why I would like B. So giving them some recipe for success. Yeah, so a way to communicate what you're feeling without putting your partner down. Yes. Okay. And so if you do find yourself criticizing your partner, that may be a sign that things are going in the wrong direction. It's not the worst of them, but it is a big one. Yeah. Like contempt is probably not a good one, right? Consent is the worst one, um, one of the biggest predictors of, relationships ending, not working out, divorce, and so consent is, sometimes consent can be in your body language, like, this again, that's consent, hostile humor, sarcasm, all of that is, um, It's contempt. And also there's been studies that have shown that people don't live as long when they're living with someone that holds contempt for them. So it shortens your lifespan. Yeah. How do you work with someone who's like, Well, yeah, of course, I'm angry at them. I have content from because they don't do XYZ. They deserve it. I would say, but do you deserve it? Because unforgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Like, how is this negativity impacting you, your immune system, your cardiovascular system? Nice. And so what you're saying, maybe it's not that they don't deserve for you to be upset with them. You deserve better by not, I being contemptuous to them. Drinking the poison and helping them to see how poisonous it can be. Yeah, totally. When you're saying it shortens lifespan, And I think also couples have to consider all of the other elements of their life because Yes, your marriage is very important. And we have to take that into account, but you also have little people around you that's looking to you to determine what marriage looks like, what love looks like, and let's give them an amazing example. And so it's your kids, it's your family, it's also your work. Like, when you think about how is this impacting me, like being negative all the time? Like, am I able to show up fully and focus and be productive if my heart is filled with all this negativity? I imagine not. Yeah, totally. And also, you're less likely to get what you want, right? If you're expressing contempt, you know, we haven't talked about growing up, but you mentioned it. I do a lot of work with around family of origin. Typically when I see a couple of the first session is with them together, looking at their relationship history. And then session two and session three is individual sessions where we're looking at, at family of origin. How was love expressed in your home? Like between your parents, but also towards you, how was anxiety, and sadness dealt with, how did you see conflict be resolved? So I do a lot of, early childhood exploration and. In those first two sessions session two and session three. Yeah, I got it. And can you say something about going back to the signs? Of oh my gosh, maybe we should do couples therapy. Can you talk about stonewalling? Sure, so stonewall I typically see more men stonewalling than women um Some gender differences with um stonewalling dr. John Gottman calls,, this pattern,, a demand withdrawal pattern, where the more one person is demanding, let's talk about this, we need to finish this conversation, the more the other person withdraws. And stonewalling can happen through an emotional withdrawal, and you know your spouse is emotionally withdrawn when you ask, how are you doing? Fine. How was your day? Fine. Okay. So all one word answers. they're physically present. They're showing up to dinner every night, but emotionally they are completely checked out of the relationship. That's an example of stonewalling, but sometimes people physically stonewall where they I'm done with this conversation. I'm out of here and walk out the room. Those are some examples of stonewalling. Yeah, I got it. And for certain partners, when you walk away, Things don't go well. They follow you. I've seen it and I know you've seen it too. I'm done with this conversation. No, you're not done. I need to walk away. Don't you dare walk away. Right. And it's continuing that pattern and it's not good. Right. One of the things I talk about in the after I do Academy is I tell couples how to take a break because there are times when the conversation has gotten too intense where all problem solving has gone out the window. And that's when we tend to say things that we don't mean or it doesn't come out the right way. So there are times when we, we need to take a break. Not to keep mentioning Dr. Gabbin, but he is a guru in the couples therapy space. One of the things that he says is, once our heart rate gets above 100 beats per minute, that's when we really should take a break. And so I tell couples that Like it's okay to take a break. You just have to be mindful. How so as like, I'm feeling flooded right now, or I'm having a difficult time listening, is it okay if we take a break? And then I instruct the spouse. I, if you don't take a break, that's when things tend to go left. So I'm going to encourage you when things get to that level. Allow your spouse to take a break. I just want you to set a time of when you're gonna come back. Whoever's the partner that is flooding and initiating the break, I encourage that to be the spouse that initiates coming back. So the other spouse isn't just like, well, when can we talk again? Or, issues don't get piled up. Yeah. So that's how I recommend taking breaks. Yeah, I just want to comment on that. I think it's so important for couples to take breaks when you're flooded, right? When you're seeing red, because if you interact, like you said, in that state of mind, everything you say or do, you're going to have to apologize for later. Exactly what you said. And so to have that agreement that we're going to take a break, but also build in there is space to come back. Typically, I would say 20 minutes to two hours have the break and during the break, I encourage couples to do something soothing. Um, not get on the phone and talk all about what just happened, but just do something that like, watch the comedy show, go for a walk, practice meditation, like something that is an effective coping strategy. And then once they come back together,, they're usually able to talk then, and I'll encourage them to own their part of it. Cause It's usually some part that a person plays and that may not be that you're 100 percent responsible for every problem in the relationship. But it may be I can come back and I can say, well, you know, I probably shouldn't have approached you that way. Or I probably could have talked to you more calmly. So just like owning their part. Yeah, I think that's great because if you do slow down and you think about what is my part in this, it can provide that humility. Which is needed because we, we have to come down, right? You're not better, right? I know you think, oh my God, like, if only they would do this and you wouldn't be arguing, right? I know that's what you're thinking, but, you know, to come down. Okay. What is my part in that? And,, I think the more you can do that, that sort of accountability, they can start to create more of that kind of trust, right? I don't focus too much on the self soothing during timeouts, but I need to, I think that's great. And also think about what is your part so you can come back with some humility to repair repair. I look at it, you're giving something for your partner to connect with, right? We can't connect with criticism, you know, I did this, um, because you're such an a-hole. right, right. Oh yes. You're so that's what instead, come here, come here. Let's fix it. But yeah, so sometimes. The defensiveness comes up of why I wouldn't do this if you didn't do that. And so that's when I really encourage like just, you know, taking accountability, which is not always easy for couples. Mm hmm. Yeah, it is not always easy because again, you have to recognize my part yeah, and then if they're therapists, I'm celebrating it when they take accountability. Oh my God, I'm through the moon. I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Well, let me share too. My take as a couple of therapists is for the listeners. When couples share like accountability, be like, Hey, I know I'm not always perfect or even small things like that. It's a really good sign. And it's kind of a brush of fresh air too. It's like, all right, you too can have some ownership of how you're challenging, right? Yes. Because we're all, Stan Tackett says, we're all a pain in the ass. Right? And we have to kind of like own that. Anyway, I know you are an amazing couple's therapist. I like to it's probably similar to you like just keep it real with my clients because sometimes our clients can look to us like we're perfect and have it all together. And I'm like, no, no, absolutely not. Just like you said, we're all pain in the ass at some point. Yeah, we're all the pain. Yes. Right. Um, well, a hundred percent. likewise,, Dr. Laura, it sounds like you're doing some great stuff, online academy, your book, working with couples, but, I know we're coming up on time. Anything else that you would like to share, or would you like to, share more about what you got going on? Sure. I just want to encourage couples out there to, keep going, keep striving,, even when it's challenging. I remember like a few years ago, I had, um, surgery. I had, um, a fibroid that needs to be removed and it was kind of scary because they had, when, I don't know if you've ever had surgery, but when you have surgery, they go through all these questions of, what do I do? Well, what do you want to happen if you don't wake up? And I'm basically the reality of like, what, I thought this was just the outpatient procedure. And I remember my mom being there and she got me this plan and I adore my mom. Like we're really close. She's a therapist too. And so when I look at the plan, this was like a few months later, after my surgery, the plant has started. The wither and I was like, Oh man, I could keep my plan alive. And when I thought about it, I had not been watering it. And so I just encourage all the couples out there to look at your marriage as though it is a plant that needs tending to that's that needs watering. Um, And then just a little bit about, like, if there's any couples out there who would like to work together, um, the After I Do Academy, that is something where I'm able to, like, work with you and give you support in terms of, like, how you can navigate some of these conflicts that, that come up in marriage. That's a resource. And also my book, Marital Peace, I've done over a thousand speaking engagements. So whenever I get asked a question more than one, I'm like, okay, why don't I,, record something on that topic? So it either go in the, after I do academy or like in, in the book marital peace, I basically took all of the challenges that I was seeing in my work in terms of challenges that couples were having and put a chapter in, in the book on how couples can reconcile those things. So, yeah, very cool. Well, that's awesome. So the real couple's experience and how to handle that. But I agree 100%, right? Again, another quote, my mentor, intimacy is not something you have, it's something you do. And it's kind of like, it's a plant that needs to be tended to, right? We got to stay active in it, especially after that initial kind of infatuation stage, where it's off in the beginning. Now, roll up our sleeves and we got to, go to work, so to speak. Yes, people think that initial period is for forever and usually the research shows about three years into the relationship that infatuation that it's just a look and it's on or talking on the phone for hours, like after about three years that starts to stop. Stabilize and you're not like high, like on a drug. That's, that's what that infatuation period is like has been compared to being high on, on dopamine. And so we have to start to see each other from, that real, real view. but also be committed to navigating the challenges that are a natural part of relationships. Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your insight, your experience, your wisdom. I really appreciate it. And,, obviously, let's stay in touch. Yes, do it. Thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you. Hey everyone. If this has resonated with you, or if you gotten anything from the podcast, please give us a five-star rating and share this with someone who could benefit from. This information